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Tuiatua Tupua Tamasese Efi
Head of State, Prime Minister

Born in 1938 into an aristocratic Samoan family, Tuiatua Tupua Tamasese was educated in Samoa’s capital, Apia, and Wellington, New Zealand. He was elected to Parliament in 1966 and served as Prime Minister of what was then Western Samoa from 1976 to 1982 and as Deputy Prime Minister from 1985 to 1988. This interview was recorded in 1996. Ian Johnstone began by asking Tupua Tamasese what he thought of New Zealand’s intentions towards Samoa in the early twentieth century.

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Transcript of the interview

Tupua Tamasese: The New Zealanders - certainly Massey - wanted Samoa to be incorporated into New Zealand, in that you had the beginnings of the citizenship issue. In fact, even before him the New Zealand political leadership and others in other professions - law, business. And they thought New Zealand should extend itself to other places close to New Zealand, Samoa for one. And when they did take over and this is after a fair bit of canvassing. And the New Zealand government thought that Samoa should rightly come under the New Zealand umbrella.

When New Zealand came, in 1914, I don’t think there was any great resistance. In fact there was a very strong feeling for the Brits. And New Zealand was part of the Brit camp. But on the other hand people that benefited from German patronage they sang sad songs about being parted from their ways, after they were ousted by New Zealand. But on the whole Samoa, despite the overwhelming German presence, was very well inclined towards the British world and this was due to British missionaries, and British and American entrepreneurs.

The first significant disenchantment had to do with the flu epidemic of 1918 and that demolished the image of British efficiency, British caring. Here is the situation: in awful circumstances a third of the population got wiped out. I think the image of white man’s superiority was greatly set back in our situation by the epidemic - the negligence, the lack of caring and then the heavy-handedness that followed that during the Mau period, and then on top of that people like Nelson and others were demonstrating they could run businesses and that better than the administration. Now this was most unusual because during the German regime whatever else, the Germans demonstrated that they had the technology and the personnel and the will to show they can run it better than anyone. They ran the plantations well, they ran the stores well and you know Samoa was relatively prosperous.

Now when you compare the German record with the New Zealand record, there is certainly a downturn economically then and there was no matching between the calibre of the people in the earlier and the later. And then on top of that the locals were demonstrating that they could handle these things and run them very well.

Ian Johnstone: Was there pressure within this country, do you think, for independence? Did you have the kind of movements that were happening through Africa saying let’s get rid of them?

Yes, the thing is you had Nelson and the more enlightened among the independence movement leadership that had links with Evatt in Australia and Sir Stafford Cripps in Britain, and through them they had links with the Irish nationalists and Indian nationalists so that too tended to create an impetus and intellectually a moral impetus.

And this movement, shall we say, permeated the leadership right across the board internationally so that people were united not only because of a legal issue but because of a political issue and because of a vision they shared so that you would have Cripps not only plugging very strongly for us at the League of Nations, but you have the likes of Cripps and others helping the Indians and the Irish.

How was the Constitution that was eventually accepted in 1961, how was that devised?

I think by and large you know there was a lot of linkage on the British fear not only with the New Zealand Labour Party but also with the British Labour Party. People like Jim Davidson they had ...

So it was discussed generally? One of the things that Ratu Mara said was "we sent a group off and they had a look at Cyprus and we had a look at various other places and we mixed and matched until we could find something." Was that kind of process going on here?

Well, Mara was more involved. I wasn’t. I was very much looking around. I came in when independence was well established. My father was closely involved.

Can you recall what that meant for him? Did it mean long arguments or did it just mean hard work and waiting? Did it mean tough dealing - can you recall any of that?

Well, yeah, it was quite problematic because on the one hand you had the commercial sector being very suspicious about self-government and independence - as you would in most other colonies. And then on top of that you had also the traditional rivalries.

The great task that these fellows faced was how do you blend all this in order to find consensus and that was not easy. Bear in mind that we hadn’t run our own affairs since 1900 and even before then it was by the 1880s until the 1900s it was chaos. Where the input from the foreign powers was a critical factor in the political equation. So that even when people talk today about so-and-so is powerful, he won out, when you look beyond the rhetoric you would find that these people would get in power because of patronage, from either Great Britain, the United States or Germany. And they lost because this patronage was withdrawn and given to someone else.

And then we had the New Zealanders. But you develop a bit of a complex because whatever the parameters the fact is that we came out the losers. The big job for these people was to sell the idea to people that we are not born losers, it’s not our fate to keep on losing and in fact there are prospects of doing better. I mean we were taking a plunge that no one else in the Pacific was.

But isn’t it true that in quite a profound way Samoans had run their own affairs no matter what the colonial administration, that Samoans had run their own affairs always. The intricacies, the subtleties, the efficiency of your social order, the depth of the system of representation through matai was a most stable of societies in that sense.

Yes and no. Yes in the sense that once the government was set up then the people had a genius for operating a system that would ensure that by and large the power would still rest with them. Now that was tolerated up to a point. As soon as that independence or movement or decision impinged on the interests of the imperial powers then you had a scuffle.

You have spent most of your life making the Constitution work in different ways. Was it a good one? Did it do its job? Does it still?

Well, I think it served our purposes, although I wonder whether like any other Constitution it requires a bit of refurbishing. I think it was envisioned that the Constitution needed a review in twenty or twenty-five years and I don’t think we have really had that as yet. Maybe we should do that.

It did seem to be put together with perhaps more generosity of spirit and support than the colonial administration before it might have suggested.

By and large I think the Samoan Constitution was a pattern that people accepted as something that’s worth emulating. Okay, people are going to put in things that suit your own peculiar conditions but by and large it was something it was accepted as a good example that was worth looking at.

And popular - the plebiscite figures in 1961 were five to one! This is confidence of a considerable order, when you are taking a step of that size. Was that just because it was well ‘sold’ to people?

Yes, I think at that stage people were quite wanting to take on independence.

We’ve just seen a film of you on the day, carrying a spear, as it were. Can you recall your feelings on Independence Day?

Well, it was certainly a feeling of pride, of expectancy. A feeling of achievement. And I think that these were the feelings that were generally shared by people.

The challenges then that faced your father and the others who were in charge with the responsibility, were they major ones, were they economic? Were they to do with holding this internationally unusual Constitution?

Well the challenge was, considering our record, can we ensure that it would not come unstuck, with people going their disparate ways, provoking internecine strife. Judged from that standpoint I would say it was very successful.

Was that always understood that a head of state could say, "well right, now I think I could go and have a go at the open field of politics"?

Well if you look at our history in the later part of the 19th century you will find that in a number of cases Samoans suggested that the honours of the top, that at least the ritual head of government should be shared. Particularly if you have a political stalemate and you are trying to get the whole country to rally, that was a more suitable thing to do and it was recommended and was accepted by the big powers for a while. It didn’t last for long, but by and large… I think in two significant instances it was accepted by the big boys.

How well would you say that this country was prepared for independence by its colonial masters?

Well, I think it’s fashionable for people to say our patron could have done better by us. There was a deliberate attempt by the administrators, which was not unusual, to keep the level of education of the indigenous people at a certain point which is relatively low. The reason why they did this was to ensure that you did not invest in potential revolutionaries or potential disruptive elements. There is always a supposition that if you educate a subject race, potentially you are creating a challenge or a threat to your own authority.

There was the classic statement that came from Verwoerd in the Bantu Education Act, which precisely defined as you say...

It was actually government policy that natives were not supposed to go beyond a certain standard in education. I think that fitted in with the traditional Tory mindset. And in fact even for a long time after even the Labour people got in we still had this standard imposed on schools.

Which fitted a ceiling on - this is as far as you go?

Yes, if you were native and you didn't have a European name or whatever it is, you were supposed to be educated at a different school or you were supposed to reach a certain standard and no more. In fact the only people who resisted that government edict was the Marist Brothers. Just about everybody else went along including the Marist Sisters.

How have you done? How has Samoa managed with the equipment that it was given or put together itself at Independence?

Well one has to acknowledge not only people who were brought in from the United States or from the United Nations because their input was quite considerable. But the most significant contribution came from the people who were directly involved, in this case the New Zealanders and the Samoans.

On the New Zealand side you had prime ministers and Foreign Affairs people and then you had… people, people like Sir Guy Powles, Colin Aikman, Jim Davidson.

When you read what I wrote about the New Zealand and Samoa relations there’s the temptations to de-emphasise or underestimate the contribution of these people. All these guys, they had the very practical task of trying to build or construct a blend that is acceptable to people. Now that's not easy.

So you’ve got to mark it quite highly I would have thought.

Yes indeed.

TOFILAU ETI ALESANA
Prime Minister

Born in American Samoa in 1924, Tofilau Eti Alesana was Samoa’s prime minister for several months in 1982 and from April 1988 to November 1998, when he also held the Foreign Affairs portfolio. Forced from office by ill health, he died in 1999. Two years earlier he told Ian Johnstone in this Wellington interview that he remembered childhood stories about Samoan leaders being exiled to the Marshall Islands by the German colonial administration.

Ian Johnstone: Do you think that sort of rebellion was because Samoans take unkindly anyway to any colonial domination?

Tofilau: Well, the main reason I was given to understand is that the Germans at that time were not very much impressed with the way how the Samoans themselves organised - the Matai system. The government at the time, they have done something very very advantageous to the Samoan people, and that was to ban sales of Samoan lands - native lands - to foreigners. Germans imposed that policy, which New Zealand when they came here enforced it.

That is one thing you carried through.

Oh, yes. And when we became independent we even have such a provision in our constitution.

But that is essential you feel for the integrity of a nation?

Oh of course, but especially to a nation such as Western Samoa that we don’t have that amount of land which we can live on or more lands that we can cultivate. And we are certainly entertaining the fruits of those policies here.

So what did you hear then about the change? The change to New Zealand. What were you technically? Were you a protectorate under New Zealand guidance?

No, we were under the mandate of the League of Nations, and New Zealand, well according to what I heard, they were a bit like the Germans. In the matai system they have their own cultural and traditional way of dealing with things. And that is exactly what New Zealand and including Germany should have exploited. Unfortunately, the advice to them was not to. It was thought that the authorities, the chiefs, the matais were a primitive arrangement.

Yes, I’ve heard that before.

And they ignore, they totally ignore the views of, well they appointed some representatives here and there later, they appointed mayors.

But they weren’t aware of the way the matai system and the social structure worked. Did they try to impose things? I mean what about language for instance?

Well, not really. They didn’t. They wanted to educate the people. But it’s a clash of authorities. Samoan customs and traditions is an established system. We have our matai system. It was not something that was just established overnight. It’s our heritage, and so when colonialists come to Samoa they thought that what [they] introduced was the best. Whoever is under that control should adhere to what he was told. That causes a clash.

There were legislations during New Zealand’s regime that showed signs of discrimination. One I can recall is the Samoa Amendment of 1949 (or 39). In that Act, it prevented the Fiji graduates from the school of medicine there not to practise solely on their own, unless they must be under the control of the palagi doctor - someone who was graduated from the UK or Northern Ireland.

It was that restrictive.

Oh yes. Samoan doctors were known as ‘native medical practitioners’. Did you know that?

Those silly titles they dreamt up.

When the Samoan flag and New Zealand flag were hoisted side-by-side in 1948, it was then, when the two fautua. Formerly the joint heads of state were known as main advisers to the high commissioner, and that’s what the Samoans wanted in the past - they wanted some affiliation.

This was 49? As early as that?

No before 1948.

If you compare that with developments in the rest of the world - with Africa, the West Indies and so on, and certainly the Pacific - Samoa was well ahead of the others.

I think so, but that was not handed over, it was through the harsh negotiations on the part of Samoans.

As you made your way towards Independence, what were the main things you had to thrash out?

Economic development. We needed to see more investments in Samoa. Unfortunately there were not sufficient.

And the other important aspect that we wanted to see develop was education, and health. Those are the two social services we needed to be fully developed. Well, if not fully... So New Zealand assisted in health, and education as well. But now the health, we have come in and managed to persist with our own - well of course we receive every now and then assistance from New Zealand under their health department’s decision by sending patients. But the area of education is not yet… because when the power was relinquished to us in Samoa by New Zealand, when we became independent on the 1st of January 1962, our education was leveled at sixth form. And Samoa College was established by New Zealand, but it was only up to the level of sixth-form, University Entrance. Now the country opted to establish our own university, and we thought that also there are scholarships now being [offered] to Samoa by New Zealand, Australia, but it is totally insufficient to cope with the need.

You had no models to follow - no one else was independent yet. You couldn’t look around and say "this is what they did in Jamaica or …"

No, we were the first independent nation within the South Pacific.

What did you have to resolve to make a Constitution. You have told me about the two fautua, and then that became four didn’t it - didn’t you have a pattern of four leaders, of heads of state, council of deputies. How was the council of deputies sorted out?

The working committee on the Constitution to self-government, we’d seriously given thought into how we can pacify the future, because we have in our system the royal families of Samoa, and these royal families have from time to time a paramount chief they select to be their royal son.

This was in the old days. This was part of fa’a Samoa?

Yes it was part of fa’a Samoa. And there is also an authoritative body of orators. I’m referring to the royal families that are also chiefs. The salutation of Samoa is, "chiefs, orators, the people of Samoa" (laughs). The orators consist of a salutation that goes … that involves 11 traditional districts. They are the ones who are supposed to recognise a royal son who is selected by the royal families.

Starting from the time when we became independent - the two fautua of the time will become joint heads of state. And after that, when one passes away, the remaining one will keep on as the sole head of state, for life.

And then will be replaced by another one to be chosen...

… by parliament. It will no longer be chosen by the royal families, because that was the cause in the past, in the olden days, of warfare between the royal families.

So this is the democratisation of that.

That’s right. Coming to the question of the Council of Deputies. There are about four royal sons at the time. The working committee on self-government thought okay, give these two will be the [roles of] joint heads of state, and what about the other two? So one of these two was prime minister at the time, and leaving only one. And we established a Council of Deputies. Council of Deputies means they can deputise the head of state, if the head of state is not able to perform his duties.

One of the things the United Nations wanted to see in newly emergent independent countries was one man one vote - preferably one person one vote. You didn’t go that way. Did that give you troubles?

Yes. It was only the matais that were entitled to a vote. And what happened? There was a multiplication of matais. When we became independent - I can’t give you the exact figures - the number of matais were very nominal, and only after 73 there was a great multiplication.

One matai title consists of perhaps fifty holders of the same title. It was only because they wanted to vote. Or if I was a candidate, in order to get my support...

So we decided that maybe the answer to this to eliminate this unnecessary making of matais is to opt for universal suffrage. It was not very simple to realise that. But we had to propose for the country to undertake a plebiscite referendum. So we conducted referendum and the percentage of those who voted yes for universal was 57% I think.

Some of your smaller neighbours - Niue, Cook Islands - chose self-government in association with New Zealand. They continued in a relationship. Did you consider that at all?

That was our first decision. It was for Samoa to be a self-governing state. We did not opt for Independence, but during the course of our deliberations for our final constitutional convention, it was then moved by someone and discussed that we should opt for the country to become a full independent state. But someone suggested that should we become an independent state there must still be a treaty of friendship between Samoa and New Zealand.

What are your memories of Independence Day? You were the first country in the Pacific, one of the first in the world to take this step. Did you have the feeling of Samoa at risk? Were you a little frightened?

We did not adopt the feeling that we were travelling on a one-way street. We thought we were travelling on a multi-faceted street for the future. Economically, socially and stability. Although we thought that the Constitution provided every means and ways of how we can stabilise the country but no one knows at the time.

As a matter of fact it was prophesied by some people that on the day of Independence New Zealand, still hiding behind their grievance against Western Samoa because Samoa wanted to become independent, and they were preparing some battleships to come and bombard Samoa. That was the very first day of judgement. So I was standing there looking out to see if there would be a fleet of battleships. (laughs) That’s how it was.

Did it happen too early, too late, just right? You’ve got a great philosophy about it, you can see the process, but in your heart of hearts...

Well you can have two answers to this: too early, too late. To certain aspects it was too early, and in other aspects it was a little bit too late. When I say too early, it was based on economic measures that we did not have sufficient enough preparation. And when I say it is too late, Samoans should have been taught how to run their own affairs earlier.

One of the things the colonial system did for Samoa was to divide the country. American Samoa and Samoa. Is that going to be forever?

When we submit our petition to the UN for Samoa to become self-governed, it consist of three subject matters. One was for Samoa to become a self-governing state; secondly, for the lands that were taken by New Zealand from the Germans as New Zealand reparation estates to be reverted to Samoa; and thirdly, for the two Samoas to be reunited. So we have completed the first part and second, but not the third one.

Mark your country out of ten for its progress since independence. How have you done?

This is not the first time someone has asked me that question. Some people praised me and thanked me and I said no, don't thank me, thank the people because the government's responsibility is to invent proposals then they introduce these proposals. If the people rejected them, what would be the position of the government? So I wholeheartedly give thanks to the Samoan people – to the public – to everyone in the country.It's entirely dependent on stability of the country. I mean that is really an asset. If you can pacify, if you can stabilise your country, that is the main asset. Because we can never induce developed countries abroad to come to our assistance if they see the country is unstable. No, they won't waste their resources to a country that is not resting peacefully.

The daily flagraising ceremony in Apia, 1996

Tuiatua Tupua Tamasese Efi

 

Tofilau Eti Alesana

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